This is way off topic from your original post, but I still want to continue the conversation so I’ve pulled this bit over here.
There are a number of places in England like this where I’ve imported the ‘city’ at admin level 6 or 8, but it seems much too large & admin level 10 seems more appropriate. I’ve swapped some of the areas out, but not all.
I’m wondering if I should put more effort into reimporting these cities at smaller levels…
It’s a bit tedious, but you can view https://citystrides.com/cities/beta and filter by United Kingdom & England (if you open the menu, you can jump around by typing "united’ in the first menu and “england” in the second), then zoom/pan in. The difference in the levels is pretty obvious in the 3-5 much more denser sections. You can also click the borders which will display a popup that links to the city page.
A couple random places that seem incorrect (too large):
Leeds is a good example of when this goes wrong, though. If you visit overpass turbo & click the top left Run button and then the magnifying button on the map, you’ll see how a big chunk of the city doesn’t exist at admin level 10 - it’s only mapped in OSM at that admin level 8.
Wildshire is a good example of when things seem to go right. If you visit overpass turbo & do the same Run/magnifying dance, you’ll see it’s completely covered at that admin level 10. 3 randomly selected places at that level:
I’m in the US, though, so I have no idea if people look at e.g. Wiltshire and think “yeah, city” or if people look at “West Lavington” and think “yeah, that’s a town in Wiltshire county”. It’s also tough because I use the word “city” very widely (in a way that would include small towns) in a way that can confuse things.
(Wiltshire - Wikipedia does describe it as a county)
As I said in the other thread, I don’t think there’s a simple answer to this. I think the way it works in Leicestershire is perfectly acceptable, and I am working my way through it. There are some oddities, but no solution could solve more problems than it causes. But Leicestershire is easily divided up into district authorities, and for various reasons not all counties work that way. Wiltshire specifically only has two districts (‘Swindon’ and ‘everything else’), and there is no more sensible way to break it down [note that on CityStrides, Swindon is separate, but it is within Wiltshire].
I’m not really sure what I am trying to say other than that (e.g.) Wiltshire is obviously not a city, but there is no sensible way to further divide it, and for people of reasonable fitness, Wiltshire itself is doable. It has fewer streets than Leicestershire, and I am 84% of the way to completing that.
@JamesChevalier I have tried to access the the https://citystrides.com/cities/beta link but I get a red pop up in the bottom right hand corner when I try and do that. Basically it says that I don’t have access and takes me back to my home page. Do I need to do anything special to get to this ?
Unfortunately, however you split areas terms of admin levels regions it will be an issue. When I went on holiday I managed to get 100% in one area in less than an hour and some of the other areas I am looking at will be more of a long term project.
Yeah, after spotting Leeds & the inability to reduce that down to smaller areas and still maintain full coverage, I can definitely see how there’s not a generic way to handle all of England. The more CityStrides expands, the more that becomes the norm.
It looks like the Wiltshire that was brought into CityStrides is the ‘city’ and not the county. The northeast section of Swindon is not included.
Further, OSM categorizes Swindon as: United Kingdom → England → Swindon (this is a bit more difficult to see, since you have to visit Nominatim, search for "swindon england’, click the “Swindon, England, United Kingdom” entry, click “details”, and then scroll down to the “Address” section)
@drumaliens oh, sorry, that beta page only allows subscribers to view it
Yeah, this is exactly what I’m working on trying to understand → whether the ‘one area in less than an hour’ place is the correct thing to have in CityStrides as a “city” or the “long term project” is the place that is correct.
This screenshot from the beta page might help highlight it:
James I got you to edit Warwickshire and break it down to level 10 last year.
I think level 10 is broken down to civil parishes, so some rural areas are fairly small numbers of roads and can be finished quickly, but those areas are recognisable to locals as a “city” in reference for this website.
There are a few good sized towns that would be cities in America.
Leamington Spa: 50,000
Stratford Upon Avon 30,000
Before it was changed to level 10, it was at the county district level. Those were large areas that would take years to complete.
There are quite a few active runners in these towns that are going toe to toe to try to be the first to complete the “city”.
I can see this is going to be an issue across the UK with the inability to split some places down satisfactorily, however for what its worth, I was going to ask a question that seems quite aligned with this topic, less on the multiple named roads in an area but more with the sheer size of some “cities”.
I have not been very active on this project for a while, but I revisited it a little while ago and when I saw that Warwickshire (definitely not a city in its own right), had been broken up into several smaller parishes (Thanks @willdineley ) encompassing towns and villages I was very pleased and was going to post and ask you if the same would be possible with other places for example Rugby. This has lead to me going out and actually striding a couple of the local villages and helping to getting back into it.
Looking at the North Devon areas I think they should be split down also, as Barnstaple is a large town and as such for the purpose of striding I think I should be considered a “city” therefore the rest of that area should be divided up also, I accept you can argue that the smaller sectors are too small, but personally I love to go to an area and actually have an opportunity to finish it,
Going back to your original post I actually thick Leicester while very large is about right as it is a city in its own right, same applies to Leeds but Wiltshire should be split down further, especially when you look on the map at the size of actual cities such as Bristol, bath and Swindon (large town).
I would argue that Bath and Swindon could do with being smaller than they appear in Citystrides but I am not sure of the underlying data and if that is possible without splitting the city up into a series of small areas within a city.
There is definitely no easy answer but I feel like “shires” and other counties (e.g. Wiltshire, North Devon, Mid Devon, Torridge, Charnwood, North West Leicestershire) should be split down, but those places that are officially “cities” in their own right would need more careful consideration. (e.g. Bristol, Birmingham, Derby are all ok as they are, but Stafford, Rugby and Daventry could maybe do with splitting down further.
I have had a look a Wiltshire in overpass and the data is the same as in my county Warwickshire. It seems to split it down to level 10 civil parish level. This splits out the larger towns and then breaks down the rural areas down to managable areas.
Can you update the England down to level 10, sounds like a big job? Scrolling around https://citystrides.com/cities/beta England there are counties that have been split up down to level 10, maybe there is an active runner that has asked you update their area. Then there are counties that are still at the district level 6 or 8.
Then Scotland and Northern Ireland must have a different data structure the main cities are there, but the rest of the country is in one block.
@JamesChevalier The link below is a UK Gov data set map for England showing parishes, OSM level 10 I think. The areas in white are unparished, I guess these are the areas like Leeds and Torbay, Rugby (@howling0_strava). That at the moment can’t be broken from a district level down to level 10.
It looks like only England has a difference between Council Level admin_level==8 and Parish Level admin_level==10. Which is probably why when I have been on holiday to Wales the areas I have run in City Strides are so much smaller.
What would happen if all of England was set to Level 10? Like the area of Leeds mentioned above, the surrounding areas of Bradford, Calderdale and Kirklees are all in the same situation where they have many areas at level 10 but the centre Council area doesnt have a level 10 parish area, would they just then not have a trackable City within CS?
Personally it would be far better to have the smaller Parish areas. Being from that area it makes more sense to have the smaller town like areas as a City in CS, rather than the massive Council areas having thousands of roads each.
Wiltshire is a “county”. Breaking down the UK (or at least England) by county is a bit like the same order of magnitude as states in the USA although, of course, somewhat smaller even if large for CS.
A friend of mine is top of Wiltshire and has a long term aim to finish it but that’s going to involve hundreds of trips out by car to get them all done.
I live in the county of Surrey which borders on Greater London. I have a sort of longer term to do all of Surrey. Currently it is broken into 8 (I think) “cities” and I am about to complete my 4th one. They are all quite large - up to 2000 streets and one end to the other is about a full marathon. Each “city” corresponds to how Surrey is broken down for local government and so are really “areas” than cities. Each of these tends have several significant towns and also a lot of country lanes to cover which often means a nice run but minimal street return for your “effort” but I tend to look more to filling out the map than just maximising strrets which are far easier to collect in “real” heavily built up cities.
I have seen some English counties (think Somerset is one) where CS has broken them into tiny “cities”. I think there is one with just 6 streets and all quite rural. “By chance” I had done 3 from one run several years ago and was thinking of driving down to see if can complete it in one run. But seems to go from one extreme to the other. Completing a “city” that has well over 1000 streets seems quite a personal achievement but if say I “collected” about 50 cities for completing part of one county then not sure that is much to tell your mates about
This might be one of those things where it’ll be impossible to make everyone happy.
I’ve consistently heard the phrasing of “[place] is a county” / “[place] definitely isn’t a city” though, so even if the next level down is “too small” it seems less bad than the alternative.
Your situation in Surrey is another different situation where it’s not using the admin level 6 Relation: Surrey (57582) | OpenStreetMap as many other areas of England are - it’s using the admin level 8 Relation: Surrey Heath (109211) | OpenStreetMap
There’s admin level 10 available, but there are some odd gaps where the available replacements overlap. Gulidford, Mole Valley, and Surrey Heath being the main issues. It’s a bit of a pain but if you run the query in overpass turbo you can click the mentioned areas to see their shape highlighted & the overlaps are pretty obvious.
So for Surrey, that admin level 8 might be the smallest I can go … I’d hate to create gaps and then hope that someone can map out different (but still correct) borders.