Sydney City / Suburbs

Once you get outside of the urban areas (which those examples you have picked are), I’m not sure either level 6 or level 9 admin level areas equates to the idea of city. They are just so vast. For example, the area covered by Clarence Valley Council is about the same size as Kosovo. It then has about 100 nested level 9 “cities” inside, many of which contain just a couple of long roads and nothing you would even call a village.

I’m not really qualified to comment on what makes sense for walkers/runners outside the big cities, or even those areas with a modest-sized country town surrounded by vast tracts of barely inhabited land.

Since I can only really comment on metro areas (and in my case, a very large metro area), the level 9 admin areas don’t really equate to what you’d call a city. They are suburbs. Since logging my first activity on CS on 11 November last year (2023), I now have 19 level 9 “cities” completed. Admittedly there was a lot of low hanging fruit, and I’ve picked a lot of that off. There are around 700 level 9 cities within CS’s Big Sydney and many of those will take a lot of work. But a lot less work than say, Sheffield or Seattle as two cities where there has recently been celebration of CSers completing them.

I don’t know if there are reasons (data processing demands for example) for you to want to pick either level 6 or level 9 cities aside from addressing the double counting issue. If it is largely the double counting issue driving a desire to change, then just going with level 9 cities would most readily fix the problem. That’s because most of the level 9 cities do appear to be properly nested within Big Sydney even though the level 6 city in which they sit may not be.

There will remain a few around the periphery where the level 7 admin level Sydney doesn’t marry up with the outer level 6 cities (eg Blue Mountains Council, which we discussed on Monday). But the vast majority of the double counting is arising in the level 6 cities that border the ocean (Waverly, Woollhara, Randwick etc) that are geographically fully contained in the level 7 Sydney but that are not nested in Big Sydney. Since that non-nesting must have something to do with however that level 7 Sydney has been created in OSM, it would probably need to be fixed at the OSM level, not the CS level.

As an aside, I had a very quick look at how the other very large cities in Australia are set up on CS.

Melbourne looks to have both level 6 and level 9 areas classified as cities and no nesting. That means that every street walked or run by someone in Melbourne will count twice (subject to the unique name qualification). Nesting level 9 cities within level 6 cities isn’t feasible as not all level 9 cities are geographically contained in a single level 6 city - that’s true of Sydney too. But there is no equivalent of Big Sydney (ie level 7) created for Melbourne so everything counts as as top level city.

In Brisbane there does seem to be a Big Brisbane. I am guessing a bit, but I think this is a level 6 city. The LGAs in the state of Queensland generally seem to be a bit bigger than in the metro areas of NSW. And a single LGA (level 6) appears to cover most of the inner metropolitan area of Brisbane. There are then level 9 cities nested within that level 6 Big Brisbane.

However, outside of Brisbane it looks like all cities are defined at the level 9 level. For example, City of Gold Coast is a single LGA that covers the region south of Brisbane down to the border with NSW and is the second largest metro region in Queensland. I imagine it therefore is defined as a level 6 city in OSM but isn’t defined as a city in CS. Instead all the individual suburbs (level 9) are defined as cities.

I only had a quick look at Perth (in Western Australia) but it seems that CS just has cities at the level 9 level over there.

I hope this isn’t all too long and waffly to be of any help.

Melbourne is a mess, visiting from NZ at the moment and as much as I’m enjoying the boost to street count, it does seem somewhat ridiculous (see my walk today - 13 streets “completed” where in reality it should have been 1 - Simon McNaughton's activity on April 19, 2024 - CityStrides). I’m far from an expert on AU cities but it does look as though admin level 6 would work best for the majority of the Melbourne region. Interestingly there is a level 7 “Melbourne” which covers the greater metro area.

Maybe some locals could chime in with their thoughts?

The count was off because a number of the cities weren’t marked as being nested. I’ve fixed that nesting up as best I can in Victoria, but there are some that can’t be marked as nested.

In an effort to deepen my understanding of the conversation :point_up: so far (and in many cases remind myself), I reviewed these levels.

Each of those pages includes a link to its Wikipedia page. Those pages describe the level 9 place as a central business district (CBD) and the level 6 place as a local government area. That level 7 entry is the metropolitan area.

That also lines up with Sydney (with some missing Wikipedia links)

Outside of Sydney/Melbourne, it does look like admin level 9 does a decent job of matching “city”. Shire of East Gippsland - Wikipedia and Golden Plains Shire - Wikipedia are admin level 6, and list out several towns which end up being level 9 in OSM, as examples.

Once you get to Melbourne etc the two levels are not compatible. I can’t cleanly nest the 9 into the 6 and get full coverage, and I can’t nest 9 into 7 for the same reason.

As a person who is just about as far away as you can get from Australia… the municipalities (level 7) seem much too large and the conversation seems to be down to choosing 6 or 9. LGAs (level 6) seem decently useful in urban areas, and then expand out quite a bit in the more rural areas.

It might be time to send a very short survey to anyone who has completed a street in these places to get some local opinions…

(I’m having similar difficulty with places in England)

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Thanks - the rogue (but tremendous) street count seems to have been fixed - subsequent runs have a more expected total.

Will leave for any Aussie locals to chime in on level 6 or level 9, a survey may be the most diplomatic approach (or perhaps data - consider how many striders are running the big cittes vs those running in smaller towns?)

In terms of what these actually are:

The Level 6 areas are what get generically referred to as ‘local government areas’, and usually have names like ‘City of’ in urban areas or ‘Shire of’ or ‘Council/Regional Council’ outside urban areas. They are formal government entities and are the body you pay ‘rates’ (= property/council tax) to. Outside major cities they are roughly equivalent to US counties, the difference with the US is that most major cities (except Brisbane and Canberra) are subdivided into numerous local government areas (Melbourne has about 30, most with populations around 100-200,000, Sydney is similar). The ‘City of Melbourne’ (or Sydney) covers only the city centre and some inner suburbs within a few kilometres of the centre.

The Level 9 areas are suburbs in cities, towns/regions elsewhere. Their main official use is postal addresses, which means they do have formally defined boundaries. ‘Melbourne’ (the suburb) covers the central city only, probably 1-2 square kilometres.

The entities that make up Level 6 and Level 9 areas have more or less full coverage of Australia except for some remote outback areas and islands (I haven’t checked to see how this is reflected in OSM, although I do note that local government areas don’t seem to appear in Citystrides in Tasmania, Western Australia, or Queensland outside Brisbane). Level 9 areas don’t nest perfectly in Level 6 ones, e.g. my suburb in Melbourne (Fairfield) is split between two local government areas (the City of Yarra in the south, the City of Darebin in the north).

The Level 7 areas (which would be most commonly referred to as ‘Greater Sydney’ or similar) are much less well defined, and debating where the boundaries are can keep statisticians busy as to which areas are included/excluded (the Blue Mountains towns/council area are one of the edge cases here). There were formal definitions of which local government areas were part of Greater Melbourne/Sydney but nobody paid any attention to them until they became the basis for which areas Covid restrictions applied to…

Street name duplication is rare in Level 9 areas, a bit more common in Level 6 (more so in rural areas where every small town seems to have a ‘Cemetery Road’), and very common in Level 7. (In Melbourne we went through a process of local government area amalgamation in the 1990s where typically the new local government areas were formed from two or three earlier ones; street names were rarely duplicated in the old local government areas, so now you sometimes find the same name repeated two or three times in a local government area, but rarely any more).

My vote would be for keeping both level 6 and level 9 in the Australian context. Completing level 9 entities is an achievable objective for a lot of people, only the most committed will go close to completing a level 6 entity but it still represents a target. (I’m around 50% for two level 6 entities and 25-30% for three more, which is enough to get me in the top three for most of them).

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Incidentally, another difference between Australian and American usage is that in Australia the term ‘suburb’ will be used for any district of a city (except maybe the central city itself), even those very close to the centre.

Hi Blair, I agree with your last para re keeping level 6 and 9 cities. You are exactly right, level 9s are nice and achievable, while level 6s give an achievable but next level challenge.

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I can’t speak to the Sydney issues but as a Melbournian I agree with Blair and Mel. I would be gutted if I lost either level 6 or level 9. I want both. Both of those levels and the % completion matter more to me than the total street count